Curse

moriz · Aug 27, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Intro
this guide will probably be quite long, so it's unlikely i'll finish it all in one setting. as such, this guide will be presented in parts. this is part I.

Overview
alliance battles (AB for short) at its very basic is the art of holding 4 or more shrines consistently. if your side can achieve that, victory will be yours 80-90% of the time. sounds easy? that's because it is. winning AB is not about how many people you can kill, or how long you survive. in fact, most of the concepts of pvp does not apply to AB. as such, the ability to kill other players, and the ability to tank multiple attackers are not very valuable. what's really valuable are the ability to cap shrines quickly, as well as the ability to keep your opponents from capping faster than you.

The concept of "maximum influence"
this basically means: "how many targets can you affect?" builds and players capable of achieving a high maximum influence are generally more valuable in AB. those with little maximum influence tends to be quite useless.

Character archtypes
there are a few common build types in AB, as well as the mentality behind them. some more effective than others. here i will outline the most common.

the "i killed u guud" character
the majority of builds in AB tends to consist of these ones. such builds are often played by players who have little knowledge/regard for the workings of AB, and are just there to kill (although there are exceptions). assassins, warriors, and dervishes tend to fall into this category.

while they are generally good at killing other players, their overall effectives is questionable. does the ability to blow up a player in uner 5 seconds really help your side to win? maybe, but probably not. their maximum influence is very low, since everything they do can only affect one target at a time. in terms of capping shrines, they are often quite bad. for example, an assassin generally cannot cap most of the shrines by itself. if they stray any where near the elite elementalist shrine, they will get blown up in under 5 seconds. without proper support backing them up, these characters are often useless.

the "i tanked u all" character
probably the most useless archtype in AB. they generally rely on defensive stances or stacked layers of protective enchantments to "tank". while they are very good against the "i killed u guud" characters (since they can draw them like flies to rotten food), they generally have zero influence. common professions are tanking warriors (dolyak sig anyone?), earth eles, 55 monks.

the nuker
these characters are very effective at capping shrines. a properly-played nuker can clear a shrine of all NPCs in a matter of seconds. often, the final outcome comes down to how effective the nukers on your side is. with that said, these characters tend to be very fragile. the ability to blow up NPCs does not translate into how well they can kill opposing cappers, nor how well they can disrupt their opponents. overall, their maximum influence can be quite high, as long as they don't get blown up on their way to the next shrine. the most common builds are fire nukers of some sort.

disruption, party support
they are a huge shortage of good characters in this category. generally, this is because most ABers are too stupid to know how to play them, and too stupid to know how much influence they can have on the battlefield. these characters can have enormous maximum influence, capable of interfering with multiple targets, and buffing the effectiveness of many allies. however, a badly-played character in this category is worse than useless. common builds: shutdown necros, shutdown mesmers, cripshot ranger, BA ranger, motivation/command paragons, weapon rits.

[i]healer/protector[i]
lastly, there are the healers and protectors. in an organized party, they are very effective. in your average pug, they are quite useless. given the size of AB maps, it is very easy to get seperated. once that happens, these characters cannot perform up to their usual effectiveness. their maximum influence can be very high. but often times, they are not worth their character slots. common builds: healer/protector monks, restoration rits.

Fitting it all together
always remember that to win AB, your side must hold 4 shrines or more shrines more often than your opponents. as such, when making a team (whether an organized party or just a pug), its best to look for players that have the highest maximum influence. the best characters in this regard are nukers and disruption/party support. usually, you'll want at least someone capable of nuking and 1-2 characters in the disruption/party support category. the final 1-2 character slots can be filled by a character than can score that single vital kill. generally, you want a good, smart assassin with good battlefield awareness, as well as the willingness to follow target calls. of course, if you can find a warrior or dervish who can do the same, that's fine too. if you are making an organized party, you'll probably want a healer of some sort. if you are making a pug, then it's best to skip the healer and bring more damage/disruption. healers are generally a hinderance to unorganized pugs since it's easy to get seperated.

part II can be found here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10192233

Dr Strangelove · Aug 28, 2007, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Sounds fairly accurate, however, E/D mind blasters which fit most easily in the "nuker" category here also happen to be one of the most durable templates available.

You also seem to neglect shrine defense for pure offense. Stalling a large force with a few characters with NPC backup can do far more good than running around in circles capping shrines.

Finally, I really don't feel that pure heal/prot builds are much good in AB. Yes, they can keep a squad alive indefinitely, but that's not what you're going for. A WoR rit, a motivation paragon, or even a half smite monk of all things will provide enough party defense to let your squad punch through another, but doesn't become completely worthless while capping shrines or split.

JoeKnowMo · Aug 28, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Killing is not the be-all end-all of ABs but my feeling is you've undervalued it. Holding shrines plays an important role and unless you can get some kills, you won't be able to hold against incoming waves of opponents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the "i killed u guud" character

The fact that these characters are typically played by numbnuts doesn't make them weak. In the right hands, these characters can score kills against NPCs and more importantly against key players on the opposing team (MMs, Monks, Nukers). They typically need a healer/protector as support for full effectiveness.

Quote:

the "i tanked u all" character

Only useful when the other team is brainless... but you'd be surprised at how often that happens. Keeping 6 opponents busy hacking away at you while the rest of your allies run around and cap shrines can be a deciding factor in getting a win. The effectiveness of this character is inversely proportional to the intelligence of your opponents.

Quote:

the nuker

Good at capping shrines but mediocre otherwise. Great against bunched up opponents. Usually in need of support when attacked.

Quote:

disruption, party support
common builds: shutdown necros, shutdown mesmers, cripshot ranger, BA ranger, motivation/command paragons, weapon rits.

Paragons are mostly spear chuckers in AB due to many shouts only affecting party members and getting reduced energy back from shouts/chants. Disruption can be useful but can be often removed well by an opposing monks... and it's hard to disrupt a monk due to having to get into the frontlines where you will often rapidly die. I'd include Blindbots, Trappers and Spirit rits in this category too.

[i]healer/protector[i]

Methinks you sorely underrate these characters. First, they keep the team alive which prevents the team from getting split up and improves organization - something very lacking in ABs and is a definite advantage. Second, they are decent at countering shutdown on their allies, thus improving their effectiveness. Third, they rarely become a priority target due to the chaos of ABs and even if they do, it requires that opponents (over)extend which often gets said opponents killed. Fourth, even if separated from their team, they are not rendered useless as they can target allies (unlike some Paragon skills), and keep healing/protting.

Try this, come up with any decent team build called Team A (e.g., 2 nukers, 1 BHA/Cripshot ranger, 1 paragon). Now, replace one of those characters with a decent monk - call it Team B. Team A will cap shrines slightly faster due to added DPS from one teammate but will likely die when going against a team of 4 "I killed U Guud" types. In addition, Team A will likely die to Team B if they are both trying to cap/hold the same shrine. Team B can also hold off 6 opponents while still scoring kills which Team A would be hard pressed to do.

The problem with the healer/protter theory is that skill matters more with this character that with most of the others - much like with the disruption characters. And skilled players are in short supply in ABs. So not just any monk will do.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. Keep at the guide.

moriz · Aug 29, 2007, 02:16 PM // 14:16

don't know about chants, but i know for a fact that shouts work on all player allies. i once had a non-party paragon put "fall back!" on me. so obviously, shouts work (and work very well).

as for the "i killed u guud" types, while they can be effective in the hands of a skilled player, that player will be far more deadly if he/she plays something with more maximum influence, such as disruption or support characters. the reasoning being that a skilled player can take advantage of the disruption/support characters (especially the disruption types) higher maximum influence. disruption characters, especially rangers, tend to directly reflect the skill of the player. the more skilled the player, the deadlier they become. most "i killed u guud" types have a cap to their effectiveness. once you a certain level of skill, it no longer reflects in your performance (assassins are notorious for having a low "skill cap").

as for shrine defense, i haven't got to it yet. it is very important, as i have done it multiple times and can see the effectiveness in doing so. however, such tactics are hit and miss at best. sometimes you can hold a shrine against multiple attacks by yourself, and sometimes the shrine will crumple no matter what they do. i guess the best way to properly defend shrines is to first see if the attackers are organzied or not. an unorganized attack is easy to fend off. if they all rush you at the same time, turn tail and run like hell.

Syntonic · Aug 29, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Many of the paragon shouts/chants have been crippled so that they only work on your party members. A few still affect people outside of your original party and the list keeps growing shorter with time. There have been several complaints about this.

As for shrine defense - I'd have to strongly disagree as no, it's really not a hit or a miss. After capping a few shrines and encountering a few teams, you'll realize their skill level against your own. If you are in a coordinated team filled with friends or guildies that know THE PLAN (tm), you are in a fairly good position to head off teams especially if you choose a shrine that gives bonuses. Normally, when tying up 2-3 teams at once, it's more like 1 team and a few extra because you keep killing and shutting down one after another and they keep running back for more (sadists). Add to the fact that not everyone in their group will be together if they are a PUG and you'll realize just how easily it is for one really good group to create a huge chance for their side. EDIT: Also remember that some if not most of them are carrying PUG type builds including DOLYAK and the like.

Certainly, you will eventually crumble but not before tying them up for a good amount of time and if you do that, you've succeeded because your team should have been able to handle shrines and that single team/single cappers. That or even better - your team finishes capping and reaches the shrine you are defending. There's a lot of quick thinking involved but it doesn't nearly include as much guesswork as your post implies especially when you aren't in a pick up group.

dont feel no pain · Aug 29, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

[skill]Glyph Of Energy[/skill][skill]Maelstrom[/skill]

very usful for capping and does not require any attributes

=]

makes all the shrines but the ranger and warrior ones usless

Even a W/E could run this ^^

moriz · Aug 30, 2007, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

As for shrine defense - I'd have to strongly disagree as no, it's really not a hit or a miss. After capping a few shrines and encountering a few teams, you'll realize their skill level against your own. If you are in a coordinated team filled with friends or guildies that know THE PLAN (tm), you are in a fairly good position to head off teams especially if you choose a shrine that gives bonuses. Normally, when tying up 2-3 teams at once, it's more like 1 team and a few extra because you keep killing and shutting down one after another and they keep running back for more (sadists). Add to the fact that not everyone in their group will be together if they are a PUG and you'll realize just how easily it is for one really good group to create a huge chance for their side. EDIT: Also remember that some if not most of them are carrying PUG type builds including DOLYAK and the like.

Certainly, you will eventually crumble but not before tying them up for a good amount of time and if you do that, you've succeeded because your team should have been able to handle shrines and that single team/single cappers. That or even better - your team finishes capping and reaches the shrine you are defending. There's a lot of quick thinking involved but it doesn't nearly include as much guesswork as your post implies especially when you aren't in a pick up group.

that will depend how you usually play AB. if you are of the majority of players, you won't have the reliable team around you to hold a shrine with you. most likely, you'll be trying to hold that shrine by yourself, or with only one or two allies, whom most likely won't even be on the same team as you. in that situation, the only way you can hope to win even with perfect interrupting is if the attacking group is uncoordinated. the most you can really hope for is slow down the capping. therefore, for the vast majority of time, holding one shrine from multiple attackers is a very chancy move.

Syntonic · Aug 30, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Yes, if you are going to play in a random pick up group, you won't have a reliable team around you most of the time because you don't know the limits and the subtle nuances of how they play. However, remember that you started this thread to discuss about the proper way to play AB. While there is an aspect of chaos and disorganization in AB, there is also a controllable part which is the ability to choose your team mates which normally means reliable friends that you play with and know their playing styles. It would be silly to discuss the "proper" ways of ABing to not consider team building a part of it.

I don't know about you, but normally, the group I'm in tries to move as a unit. There are times where you might do a minisplit with one person hanging back or whatever to stop single cappers and to give a heads up when you are about to lose the shrines entirely (useful for Saltspray once you control the urn side and don't want to lose it for example). If someone dies, then you just ping your location or give a simple, "We are at the warrior/ele/mesmer/etc. shrine" and they should be able to make their way to you. If they pick up an enemy or two, the group can handle that. In short, proper playing amounts to teamwork and normally solo capping with strangers isn't a part of that equation.

Back to the discussion at hand: You obviously realize the point of defense is to slow down the opponent's capping or to stop a push outright but I really have to ask, have you ever played in a really coordinated AB group consistently night after night? I still say it's less about uncoordinated attackers as much as your ability and confidence in being able to handle the opposing team. If you can kill off one team before another joins in, it's not hard to maintain that level of chaos for some amount of time. We can agree to disagree on this point but my personal experience when I ABed religiously was the above (special shout-outs to all my friends who also ABed with me religiously night after night.)

The thing about AB is that it's not that decisive most of the time. Chancy situations won't usually break the game you are in but they can provide the means for a win. It's better in AB for your entire party to follow up on a bad strategic decision than to split up and lose your cohesiveness. If your party nearly wipes, it's not as big of a deal as it would be in other forms of PvP. It sets you back at a slight disadvantage due to waiting and regrouping but it's not something you can't recover from.

kess · Aug 30, 2007, 06:29 AM // 06:29

the most common profs in AB are sins and ele.

BHA and int mesmer are best against ele nuker and anything with blind are good against sins, blind sins can't use their attack chain, and extremely fragile. Same for wammo, derv even the rangers.

Never underestimate the usefulness of MM, especially good MM. If you see a mob of minions running towards you, best tactics are put on your running skills and run away (Minions are slow). A MM can take down a team of 4 players without any int easily. Seen 3 sp sins tried to kill a MM but failed. They spam botm faster than you can inflict those dmg.

To take down an MM is to int his/hers dark bond and aotl (easy since they have 2s cast time). SF nukers, don't ever waste your sf on MM, you just wasted all your energy and they don't burn.

when going against a team, take down monk first, next mesmer, ele and sins, always leave the high armor char last. Unless you see a flare ele xD

moriz · Aug 30, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

part II can be found here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10192233

i guess we are looking for a guide for different players then. let's face it, the vast majority of ABers are uncoordinated. it's much better to write a guide for this vast majority, and hopefully raise their collective skill level, than to write a guide for the tiny minority of coordinated players who probably don't need a guide to begin with.

while it's true that one can control the builds inside the group, but one can never control how those players will behave. it's often best to assume for the worst and never expect a lot from those teammates. at least you'll be prepared for the worst to happen and deal with it.

i've done shrine defense before, often by myself against full groups of 4. i once spent an entire AB doing nothing but dropping these four people repeatedly with my cripshot. however, if they have any coordination, the only thing i can do is run. even if i can win, i often won't be able to hold off the second rush after they res simply because the shrine npcs will likely be dead, and i'll be left with little hp and energy.

playing AB with a coordinated group is not interesting to me. it's simply too easy for me. it's like farming pve but worse, since i can't get a nice reward in gold afterwards. as such, i've never taken the time or effort to get myself into a coordinated group. it's not like i absolutely need one, since i'm more than skilled enough to do everything on my own. it's also hard to find a group i feel comfortable in, since most of the skilled players i know don't bother with AB, and i can't find anyone of similar skill level.

Lorinda · Sep 10, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

You tired to cure a wound that has been rotting for 12 months.
Its a really nice try but i doubt it will help. AB is just a play ground for pve people that want to fight others.
That is also why I only play AB with my AB guild. (luxon side, some say those are better. I doubt it sometimes ^_^ (because the kurzicks have that quest))

Some small hints, give some more builds instand of what not to play. A tank can be usefull. If your other 2 teams know what they are doing, then 1 tanking team can be usefull too.

Small hint also according "i tanked you all" class.
[skill]Gaze of Contempt[/skill] > Ele tank.
[skill]Wild Strike[/skill][skill]Wild Blow[/skill] > Warrior Tank, Touchers. (you did forget about those btw ^^)

But for the rest its a quite good guide.
Off to read number 2 now.

Turalisj · Sep 10, 2007, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeKnowMo

The fact that these characters are typically played by numbnuts doesn't make them weak. In the right hands, these characters can score kills against NPCs and more importantly against key players on the opposing team (MMs, Monks, Nukers). They typically need a healer/protector as support for full effectiveness.

Here here! My most played character is my assassin, and I can say that I've become adept at backing off when needed and goading targets into one on one.

iridescentfyre · Sep 11, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Good guide, albeit a bit of a talk-down

Bitter truth hurts, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

don't know about chants, but i know for a fact that shouts work on all player allies. i once had a non-party paragon put "fall back!" on me. so obviously, shouts work (and work very well).

That's not true of all shouts. Its done on a case-by-case basis. Some chants work on all allies, some shouts only work on party members. The skill description is (usually) to be taken literally. Good chants/shouts for Paragons to use in AB include "Fall Back!" and Anthem of Envy because they affect anyone.

"Never Surrender!" and "Never Give Up!" both state "party members" in their description, but I know for a fact at least "NS!" works on all allies.

Turtle222 · Nov 06, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

i do disagree about the "i kill you guud" part, but for the most part yeah you are right.

I usually fall under this category and healer protector when wanting to vary style.

My derv's capability is to cap alone (usually when my two pug sins are attacking a riposte/glad defence warrior) as well as hound sins who have spent their effort trying to kill me or eles that have exhausted their energy.

ManaCraft · Nov 14, 2007, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

The concept of "maximum influence"

This applies equally to preventing enemy influence. That is to say, if you can reliably prevent a single target of high priority (say, a monk) from having an influence on a large amount of enemies, then doing so is most likely worth it, even if that means investing all your effort into pacifying that one target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the "i killed u guud" character

Killing the opponents often beats capping shrines. Not in the sense that you don't have to cap if you can kill, but if you can reliably steamroll the opposition, the battlefield, and thus the shrines, will be yours for the taking anyway - even if you don't necessarily cap them as fast as a team with one or more "capper" characters would. The lack of capping power only becomes an issue if your entire team is low on capping power as a whole. As an "I killed u guud" character, you will be capping as part of a group going around the map, rather than attempting to solo shrines. In any given battle, the group usually has sufficient capping power to minimize this deficiency to the point where it matters very little. Yes, sometimes, due mostly to bad luck, you will be teamed up with a large amount of other non-cappers that are so disastrously weak at capping that you cannot even make up for it by strength in numbers, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

And even then, most maps will have a quite a few easy-to-cap shrines that you can solo cap and grab if need be. Only the Kaanai Canyon map (or Ancestral Lands for the Luxon people) has enough hard-to-cap shrines that I will most often switch to a build that I know can cap reliably (usually E/D mind blast).

Barring that map, I play with the philosophy of minimizing bad matchups as my primary concern, and capping second. Minimizing bad matchups basically means avoiding falling into the rock/paper/scissors trap as best you can. If you can survive and kill most enemies you run into, you have an inherently better chance of gaining control of the battlefield (even if you cap at a somewhat slower pace). Once you do, the shrines will come in turn. On the other hand, if your opponents have control of the battlefield, you will find it difficult to cap shrines, even if you have a good capping build.

So yes, capping is important, but certainly not the only priority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the "i tanked u all" character

Agreed, these are pretty much garbage. However, since teams have a tendency to mob them, and no one is intelligent enough to bring enchantment removal, they are often allowed to either keep a large portion of your team occupied for extensive amounts of time, or simply roam unchecked. Their real threat is the fact that they are there! That's the only criteria you need to fulfill to cap shrines, or prevent someone else from capping them.

An intelligent team, assuming lack of enchant removal, will simply play around these characters. But then again, how often do you have an intelligent team in AB?....

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

the nuker

Quite powerful indeed. Most are also very fragile though. Mystic regen can do a lot to mitigate this (ie minimizing bad matchups), but most people playing them either don't realize this, or don't have access to nightfall skills. Either way, the average non-E/D nuker will need support if attacked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

disruption, party support

Agreed, people aren't smart enough to play these properly. Which is a shame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

[i]healer/protector[i]

You vastly underestimate the impact of this type of character imho. Getting seperated from your own group happens, yes. But even then, good monks will look for other members of their team that need their support. No, you don't have their health bars in your party window. But if you depend on that fact to heal or protect someone, then like I said, you're not a good monk. A well played monk is one that seeks influence where it can be had. And they are, more often than not, the difference between winning or losing against enemy groups. Which, again, matters more than capping by itself. Having a monk minimizes bad matchups for the entire group, they add a degree of survivability that cannot be had otherwise.

Overall a good introduction to ABs though, you touch on a lot of important subjects and some of the key stereotypical characters played.

- Mana

Turalisj · Nov 16, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

He forgets that killing someone gives you a point. Kill enough, and you can win with one shrine capped.

I was able to win several battles in a row with a team of alliance members in an assassin/dervish party.

moriz · Nov 16, 2007, 06:06 AM // 06:06

i've done a few calculations.

to win by killing alone (as in no capping whatsoever) will require you to score 134 kills in under 1 minute.

obviously with 1 shrine capped, you won't have the 1 minute time limit. however, that still amounts to about 120 kills at least. in other words, you need to kill each opposing player 10 times on average to win by killing alone, with 1 shrine capped.

it should be easy to see that such strategies do not work, and really should not be considered.

for the record: you gain 3 points per kill, not 1.

ManaCraft · Nov 16, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Killing is not a strategy in and of itself, killing is a means to an end (capping shrines). The points you obtain through kills are nowhere near as important as the points you get by maintaining control of the shrines. Points through kills are a nicety, capping and controlling shrines is a necessity.

The point is that when it comes to controlling the shrines, the ability to obtain kills is just as important as (and I would argue moreso than) the ability to simply cap fast. If there is nothing the opposing team can do to stop you from capping, then you will cap, whether you do so at an average pace or at a fast pace. And by wiping them in the process, you also prevent them from capping shrines. A double win. In that situation you will have exerted more control of the battlefield than you would if you had simply capped a shrine.

The catch is of course that on some maps (Kaanai, Ancestral, Saltspray - though it's much less of an issue on the first two due to shrines with battle cry being spread so evenly across the map) the shrines will be far enough apart to stack the odds in favor of whoever moves and caps the fastest. There is a natural limit to how much of the battlefield you can exert control of - another reason why mobbing is generally a losing strategy. But if a group, or an individual for that matter, that caps fast is confronted with enemies, and loses every time this happens, they are also guaranteed to lose control of whatever they have capped.

Bottom line: killing is often a prerequisite for capping. If you can kill, you will also get to cap. However, if you can cap but not kill, you are basically confined to whatever areas of the map your opponents are willing to leave uncontested.

- Mana

moriz · Nov 16, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

just as a minor correction: it takes 167 kills in under 1 minute to win by killing alone. to win by holding only one shrine, the number is probably up in the 145 range.

fireflyry · Nov 18, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Ok guide but it's rather highly opinionated.

My point being there is no black and white, it's all a matter of opinion and what ever works for the team dynamic and I find your continual bias and generalizations against certain classes and play styles to really be counter productive in producing a truly neutral and informative "How To Properly Play Alliance Battles" guide.

It's just conjection based on personal experience and your personal opinion, nothing more, and no offense intended but I find your style of writing to be far to opinionated and subjective to be taken seriously.

Good read though.